Forum Activity for @strumelia

Starting a weekly jam session, please give me some tips.

General mountain dulcimer or music discussions

I have a bit of advice if you want it- start just by having a weekly or monthly jam. Get to know the people who come and see what they do. I'm imagining you'd be welcoming most folks with acoustic instruments, right? Well, unless you are actually wanting to form a band that contains everyone who comes to the jam (and maybe you DO want that), I suggest you hold off talking about forming a band to the general jam group... You may find that you don't blend well musically (or personally) with everyone who comes to the jam, and it's far easier, with less bruised egos, to invite a few people later on privately in terms of forming a band rather than to tell the whole jam group from the start that you are wanting to form a band. I guess a lot also depends on how big or small you want your band to be.

Good luck and have fun!

Starting a weekly jam session, please give me some tips.

General mountain dulcimer or music discussions

I've never really jammed much or played in front of groups of people. I've played at parks a couple times but never more than two or three people at a time would walk by where I was. I made a goal this year to get involved in something, so I decided that it's time I found a good jam and started thinking about getting involved in a string band also. There are none that I can find close to me without a long drive.

So I placed an ad in craigslist asking for people who were interested in jamming and possibly forming a band together. I've (so far) got 3 people scheduled to come over this Sunday evening to play!!!! I'm thrilled and a little nervous at the same time. Looks like I'll be the only one with a banjo or a dulcimer. We'll have guitars, mandolin's, and harmonicas too. I can't wait! I'm actually hoping some of us will mesh well together and want to go further with it and form a band to play at small local things.

Anyone with tips or ideas for small sessions like this I'd appreciate the advice.

updated by @mandy: 03/18/21 03:32:55PM

If the gears are exposed, check the screws in each gear, and snug them up if they are loose. The gears should stay in close contact. If the gears are worn, the tuners may have to be replaced. Stewart MacDonald shows dimensions for the mounting holes on their 3 on a plate tuners, there is no universal hole spacing. The distance between the shafts, and the diameter of the shafts, also varies. If possible, you want to match all the dimensions so no old holes need to be filled, and no new holes need to be drilled. If there is a makers name on your dulcimer, that might be a good place to check for tuners and the brand of tuners that probably was used on your dulcimer. Searching for dulcimer tuners may not turn up what you need simply because most dulcimers use tuners that were developed for other instruments. There are few tuners sold as "dulcimer tuners", but a large variety of "guitar tuners." The friction pegs used on dulcimers were first used on ukulele, the 3 on a plate tuners were guitar tuners, as were most of the individual tuners used by dulcimer builders. The planetary gear tuners were developed for banjos. Dulcimers represent a small market, by any standard you use to compare it to guitar or banjo production. A lot of dulcimer makers use separate tuners as they can buy them in quantity and not have a problem getting odd numbers to build a 4 or 5 string dulcimer. 3 on a plate tuners don't divide well for 4 or 5 string instruments.

Paul

Seems to be some discussion, explanation missing above from Darwin....

Stewart Macdonald carrie economy Classic Guitar tuners, 3 on a strip, for $17.97 here:

http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Tuners/Classical_guitar/Lyra-style_Gotoh_Classical_Guitar_Tuners.html

Luthiers Merchantile International also caries them for about the same price.

There is a wide variety available on Ebay as well; and, as Bill says, you can find them in most larger music stores for around $19-$20.

Some of those tuners may require you to pull off the plastic over sleeve on the tuning shafts, to use them on a dulcimer.

Are these tuning machines, friction pegs, or wooden violin pegs? If they are friction pegs, you may just need to snug the screw in the end of the knob with a small screwdriver. Over time, wear and use loosen them a bit, and they start slipping.

If they are carved wooden pegs, like a violin uses, they may need to be replaced, but there is also a peg compound violinists use to stop them from slipping. A music store that understands violin-speak should have this. If they are tuning machines, the gears may be worn. Finding a set that has the same dimensions can be a little tricky, but try Stewart-MacDonald, http://www.stewmac.com/ or Luthiers Mercantile http://www.lmii.com/

Paul

updated by @paul-certo: 02/09/16 01:40:06AM

How to restore old dulcimer?

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

Update: I lowered the nut and bridge and the dulcimer holds a true scale up to the 12 th fret. After that it is a little off. The action is still a little high so I am going to lower the bridge a little more. I think that should solve the problem as it worked with the other frets. The dulcimer is about 95% restored. I can play it at the lower frets and it sounds fine. Thanks for all your help.

How to restore old dulcimer?

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

Hey Paul

looking all the way from scotland the semitone interval count looks normal to 10th fret [2212212221] but then goes 2,3,1,2 or thereabouts?

I thought that was unusual but dulcimers are a minority sport over here and I would be fascinated to find out why it would be normal!

How to restore old dulcimer?

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

I plan to file and sand the bridge and nut down to an acceptable height. That is , as soon as I get up the courage to start. I am not very experienced in these matters.

When I had the temporary bridge in I was able to play it and it sounded nice. The higher bridge really distorts the sound. Makes it very metallic sounding, not to mention out of tune. With the temporary bridge the sound was much warmer.

Since the fret board is only one inch wide and the middle and bass strings are set very close together, I plan on saving this Dulcimer for noter/drone playing. I think it was meant to be played that way. Can't wait to start.

How to restore old dulcimer?

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

Dave,I don't see anything wrong with the fret spacing. It's hard to judge from a small picture, but it looks OK to me. Bill, try to get the strings to a reasonable height and see what you get. I bet that dulcimer has songs waiting to get out!

Paul

How to restore old dulcimer?

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

Bill, try moving your bridge back about 1 1/2 ' and check it again. See what the distance is from the nut to the 7th fret,and double that measurement that is where your bridge should be to start.

How to restore old dulcimer?

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

Maybe I will have to play songs with just the low notes

updated by @bill-hall: 07/09/15 09:42:03PM

How to restore old dulcimer?

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

I am glad you tried the stuff that Paul and I suggested and it seems you are close to a solution.

What still intrigues me is what is happening 'Down the Dusty End' from 10th fret onward.

Visually everything looks fine until you get past 10 then the fret spacing looks all wrong!

The intonation up that end is often suspect due to high fetted tension and short vsl so the frets may have been set to achieve some more regularly used notes but to me they just look wrong!

If you find the time while you are testing it would be ineresting to know what notes you get from 10 on when your scale is correct elsewhere.

Keep up the good work!

How to restore old dulcimer?

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

Get that puppy down to "nickel & dime" action height!

How to restore old dulcimer?

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

Thanks but there has been another setback. When I moved the bridge back for the VSL to be 27 inches, tuned it up and it held a normal scale, I was using a temporary lower bridge. When I put the original bridge back, even at 27 inches I was getting a distorted scale. I think the string action definitely has to be lowered. I am going to experiment some more with the temporary bridge before filing down the original bridge but I think that is what I am going to have to do.

How to restore old dulcimer?

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

It's good to hear progress was made. It's even better since no major surgery or cash outlay was needed. I love it when a plan comes together! When do we get to hear a song?

Paul

How to restore old dulcimer?

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

Great news!

Now you can let everyone hear it !

How to restore old dulcimer?

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

Following Dave and Paul's suggestion I measured the distance from the nut to the 7th fret. It turned out to be 13 1/2 "! When I bought the dulcimer the measurement from bridge to nut was only 24.375". I thought it was correctly placed, but it looks like it wasn't . I moved the bridge back so that the VSL was 27", tuned the melody string to A and got a perfect scale. I rechecked the string gauges and need to restring with different gauged strings. After I do that I will see if I can play it even with the high action. If not then I will try to lower it. Thanks, everyone who responded for all your help.

How to restore old dulcimer?

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

As Paul said it seems your bridge is out!

I agree with all he says but describe things a little differently.

Your scale looks at fist glance to be [Counting in semi tone spacing] .....

2212212221 but afterthe 10th fret it goes awry! [There is no 6 1/2 fret]

Assuming the frets are in the correct relative positions then the bridge position should be set so that the 7th fret is exactly half the vsl [distance between nut and bridge] Then check intonation as string height will cause intonation to go out as you move up the fretboard and increase tension when you depress the string a greater amount. Speaking roughly the harmonic bell note at the 7th fret and the depressed note should sound the same if intonation is correct.

Most dulcimers use a low string height however the gauge of string /tension/ pitch of note determine the physical size of the vibration at the mid point and so string height is a compromise to avoid fret buzz and maintain intonation. If you wish to experiment make a temporary single string bridge slightly lower than the original and find the best intonation /string[bridge height] for your melody string. Old credit cards cd cases video boxes etc provide temporary plasic packers to vary bridge height.

Adjusting at the nut is good but is hard to undo!

Mark your desired bridge position with tape and then you can position the existing bridge once you have altered the height if necessary.

If you are going to reduce the bridge height remove material very gradually from the bottom using sand paper on a flat surface such as an old mirror glass.

Good luck and have patience!

How to restore old dulcimer?

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

It is possible that the bridge is not placed correctly. If it is movable, it may well have been bumped out of position before you got the dulcimer. Start by measuring the distance from the nut to the seventh fret. The bridge should be placed exactly twice that distance, so that the 7th fret is exactly halfway between the nut and bridge. You may need a slight adjustment for compensation, but start with the seventh fret exactly in the middle. Try tuning and playing, to check the string height. If the strings are too high, it not only makes it harder to play, but pressing the strings too far bends the notes sharp. If it's hard to play, try lowering the strings. Adjust the height at the nut first, then if it's still too high up the fret board, lower the bridge a little. Since your bridge is moveable, you may not have to deepen the slots, just file or plane the bottom of the bridge a little at a time to lower it. Try playing it when you are finished, and if it still plays out of tune, you may need to compensate the bridge by moving it slightly towards the nut or bridge. It may need to be slightly further from the nut at the bass string than the treble strings.

Paul

How to restore old dulcimer?

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

It is certainly possible I am misreading or even misusing my tuner. I have only been at this three months and what I have learned has come mostly from experimentation and reading this website. I did however repeat it several times and got the same results. I am going to listen to the instrument some more rather than focus on what the tuner says and see where I am at. Thanks for your help it is much appreciated.

How to restore old dulcimer?

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

You do NOT have a 6+ fret, so don't worry about that fret/note on Lisa's picture of a fretboard.
Don't worry about equal vs just temperment; the differences between them are sublte and only applicable if you have perfect pitch or play with others (and perhaps not even then)

The keynote to which a dulcimer is tuned will not effect the do, re, mi, scale, just the notes of that scale. Tuning to C and being just vs equal temperment would not account for the differences your indicate.

I hate to judge a person' skills, but is it possible you're reading your tuner wrong? Where you indicate D# and C# etc are those a D or G that are just one the sharp side of C or D, or are they truly a C# and a D#. I have trouble with the sequence at the start of yours where you call them A C D D# F. That is the open A plus frets 1, 3, & 4. Seems almost impossible to me to only a half step note increase (D to D#) with very reasonable spacings shown between the frets.

A C D D# F G A B D E F# G# C# D# F# your dulcimer
A B C# D E F# G A B C# D E F# Lisa's chart

How to restore old dulcimer?

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

Thanks for your replies. I am not only new to dulcimers but new to music. I think I got this. My other dulcimer which was made in the past year I assume has equal temperament tuning. When an open string is tuned to A it follows Strumelia's fret chart as you move up the frets. I tried to apply that to my restored Dulcimer using an electric tuner and the scale I posted is what came up at each fret. However I think what Ken is saying is that if played it gives a clean do re me do not worry about my tuner? I will have to try that. I will also re-check the gauges but I did use the string guage calculator at Strothers.com and came up with 22 for D and 14 for A. One other thing, the fellow I bought this from thought it had been tuned to C but could not really remember. If this is a just intoned fret board tuned to some combination of old tuning beginning with C, would my tuning to D take it out of tune or throw off the doe re me scale? I am going to lower the action and play around with tunings and gauges but If that doesn't work I only paid $20 for it and for that price it would still look good on the wall.

How to restore old dulcimer?

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

Bill, here's a picture from Steven Smith's site showing the notes on a typical dulcimer fretboard when tuned to DAd:

The top string would apply to any string tuned to D, the middle string shown would apply to any string tuned to A.

Not all dulcimers have a "6+" fret.

Are you not getting these same notes on the various frets on your dulcimer?

How to restore old dulcimer?

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

Well, bill, I don't know from A C D D# ... but if you tune the melody string to A, and don't get a reasonably clean do, re, mi, fa, sol, la, ti, do scale when fretting up from the 3rd fret to 10th fret, there's not much you can do except wall hang it as a unique piece of folk art. I'd hate to mess up that nice carving on the fretboard by taking out frets and re-setting them at different locations.

"...don't know what to do with the scale..." Huh? If it sounds good, you play it -- after you lower the action about a foot and a half . All that will take is some serious sanding and re-cutting of string notches. Nothing wrong with a 24"-25" VSL. You can still tune it DAA, but you'll want to check a string gauge chart to make sure your've got appropriate gauges.

How to restore old dulcimer?

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

I have attached pictures of the Bridge and tailpiece. Both the Bridge and Tailpiece were floating but I put them back exactly where they were. It has a short VSL of only 24 3/8". It sounds fine to me in open tuning but I just do not know what to do with that scale.

How to restore old dulcimer?

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

Here are some more photos of the front of the headstock and the Fretboard

How to restore old dulcimer?

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I finally found the time to work on this old dulcimer. Since it was plywood I felt comfortable using Murphy's Oil Soap and I think it came out ok. I used WD-40 on the tuning gears and it loosened them right up. The only problem was that the screws holding the gears to the head piece were stripped. When I tried to re-string the tuners pulled away from the head piece. I replaced the screws and that seemed to take care of that.

My main concerns now are with the fret scale and height of the strings above the frets. I tuned the open strings to DAA but the melody line runs a scale of A C D D# F G A B D E F# G# C# D# F#. I am wondering if my dulcimer is just intoned or just out of tune? As I said earlier this dulcimer is a 40 year old reproduction of an earlier dulcimer. The Fretboard is only one inch wide. The strings sit high off the fretboard and it came with a monster sized noter. I think it was meant to be played noter drone but I really don't know if it is playable. HELP! I attached some photos.

How to restore old dulcimer?

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Here are it's measurements.Overall length 36"Scale Length bridge to nut 24 3/8"Width of fretboard 1"Length of fretboard 21 1/4"Width of soundbox at widest 5"Depth of soundbox 1 5/8"What do these measurements tell us?

How to restore old dulcimer?

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

Definitely not a kit! What an unusual design. So much body aft of the bridge, and such a large single sound hole. Very interesting. I hope you can eventually post a sound cut so we can hear it.

How to restore old dulcimer?

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

Here are some pictures. As soon as I got it I used a slightly damp papertowelto get the heaviest dust off. It is still pretty dusty, especially in the crevices along the fret board. The board is decorated with a floral design the builder told me he hand burned into the wood.

How to restore old dulcimer?

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

Thanks for the input. I am trying to upload some pictures but they are on my iPad and I see the uploader requires flash. I will send them to my computer and upload later. Its my understanding that the fellow made it from scratch. That it was not a kit. He copied it from an older wooden one he had at the time but is long since gone. I can't wait to clean it and restring it. Even with the old rusted out of tune strings it has a nice loud sound coming out of the sound box for a narrow dulcimer. I am going to measure it and put its measurements in a later post.

How to restore old dulcimer?

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

That old? Yeah, I think a mild Murphy's solution wetting a rag to wipe with, and then wipe dry, would be just fine. Not sure you'd need lemon oil after though... And a dab of 3-in-1 in the gears, if they are open or you can remove the covers, will not hurt anything either. Show us a picture. I'll bet it's an old Hughes kit; they were pretty good kit instruments back in the day. That's what I started with about 40 years ago. Sure wish I still had it...

How to restore old dulcimer?

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

Bill, not being able to see the instrument, I'd put just a little lemon oil on the tuning gears as well. Don't hurry them, let them soak a day or so, reapply then try them gently. If the strings are old, you might catch them off some way and cut them to relieve the tension on the tuning gears. That might help too.

How to restore old dulcimer?

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

I just acquired a 40 yr old plywood dulcimer. The prior owner made it when he was 14 and played it for awhile but it has been hanging on his wall unplayed for at least 30 years. It needs a thorough cleaning. It is covered in dust. I read the other postings about cleaners. It seems to me that for a dulcimer as dirty as mine Murphy's Oil Soap followed by lemon oil will take car of the dust. What do you more experienced people think?The other immediate problem is that the tuning gears are frozen. Can I use a little 3in1 oil on them or is there something different I should use?
updated by @bill-hall: 02/09/25 07:34:58PM

Electronic tuners

General mountain dulcimer or music discussions

Thanks Ivan, I interepted that fom the Korg site. My bad.

Electronic tuners

General mountain dulcimer or music discussions

Actually, Skip, the Seiko tuners give the octave number before the note and both the SAT 501 and SAT 800 are definitely chromatic tuners. I'm aware that the 'dedicated' tuners for guitar, bass, etc., give the string number before the note but note first then octave number is definitely not universal on chromatics.

Skip said:

ff;

did the readout have the number before or after the note? If the number was before it is a dedicated tuner, like a guitar orukulele tuner. The number then represents a string.

Electronic tuners

General mountain dulcimer or music discussions

I went to the Korg site and didn't see any other than the 120. I may have missed it or maybe it was an older model.

Electronic tuners

General mountain dulcimer or music discussions

The number was after as in D3, D4.

Skip said:

ff;

did the readout have the number before or after the note? If the number was before it is a dedicated tuner, like a guitar orukulele tuner. The number then represents a string.

Electronic tuners

General mountain dulcimer or music discussions

Tuning forks are less than ideal. I have never seen a set of them, but who could afford them if there were several octaves? And the weight would make me leave them home! There are online tuners you can use free of charge, if you don't have one. Great at home, but not so good if you don't carry a computer every where you go. A lot of guitar amps are now coming with built in tuners, but your best bet is still a clip on vibration sensing tuner. Tuning by ear in a group, or a noisy saloon or jam session is rough for experienced players. For a beginner, it has to be painful. The one I reach for most is a Crafters TG200H. It's small, clips on the headstock of most of my instruments, and ignores the noodling going on all around me. I also have a Korg CA 30,and a Boss TU 15. They are good tuners, but don't clip on, and rely on built in mics to hear the instrument. They work well at home where I'm in a quiet environment, or with a clip mic, or plugged into an electric instrument. They aren't as convenient with instruments that need a new tuning every several songs. The clip on stays on the instrument, ready for me to change tunings. Except on one dulcimer, with a carved head that the tuner doesn't fit! Chromatic is the only kind I want, as I use multiple tunings, so a "one tuning " model isn't practical.

Paul

Electronic tuners

General mountain dulcimer or music discussions

ff;

did the readout have the number before or after the note? If the number was before it is a dedicated tuner, like a guitar orukulele tuner. The number then represents a string.